who made the gray ID's?

Military ID models 1:72nd, 1:144th, 1:50th scale { Luftwaffe} and others like the Topping IDs. Bryan Brown Identification model specialist and major collector is the moderator.
Note: 1:200 and 1:432nd scales have separate forums below.

Moderator: BWBrown

who made the gray ID's?

Postby G10N » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:26 am

Ive been seeing a lot of gray plastic ID models of WWII aircraft listed on ebay recently, But there not made by Cruver.

Anyone know the story on these? are they 'fan made' or produced during the war?

-Paul
Attachments
G10N
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby BWBrown » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:21 am

Hi Paul -

Good question! They are not true military ID training models. When you see someone offering something "new", that he knows nothing about, that's when you should run scared! As an example, the same seller just disposed of models of an HE-111 and Sea Fury. I think they fetched $182 and $125, respectively. Both were modern replicas, and you can get the identical models today for $105 and $72, respectively, by going to the source: http://www.aircraftmodels.com.

Some of the seller's offerings are kits, assembled around a resin/putty/fiberglass core to give them weight and substance. Others are clearly of a modern resin, but from a source unknown to me.

If you would like to know more about how to tell a replica from a real model, let me know, and I will bore you to tears with the details.
Cheers! -- Bryan
BWBrown
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby BWBrown » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:44 am

Hi Paul -
I forgot to mention that the gray models you referenced, currently for sale on Ebay, are all made of some modern resin, and therefore are categorically not of military vintage or usage. I just wanted to be clear on the subject. The last military training airplane models were produced in the early 1960's.They were made of cellulose acetate butyrate. Resins came along much later in time.
Regards! -- Bryan
BWBrown
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby G10N » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:00 am

Hi Bryan!

Thanks for clearing that up for me. As for any info on spotting a replica from a period model I'm all ears! The more details the more interesting :)
Ive bought a couple replicas from Charles at aircraft models, but I didn't know there where so many others floating about. I was tempted to buy a TU-95 bear in 1/144 (I think it was listed from the same seller), but I'm glad I held off now. Not sure if there was ever a period model made for that type.


Paul
G10N
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby BWBrown » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:03 am

Hi Paul -
Perversely, that 144-scale model of the Bear may have been one of the seller's few originals!! Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.
Anyway, both the wartime and postwar models, made by companies like Cruver, Design Center, Leominster, Setco, Bevelite, Theatre Specialties, et. al., were produced in molds that were subject to pressures of thousand of pounds per square inch. Modern replicas are cast at atmospheric pressure. From a practical standpoint, what this distinction means is that replicas have small pits, bubbles, or occlusions if you look at them closely. You will see small pits in the bottoms of control surfaces, around the ribbing of canopies, etc. Originals had no air bubbles, given the pressures they were subjected to. Hence, no pits, bubbles, etc.
The thing that gave away the recent auctions of the Sea Fury and HE-111 were the raised "R"'s inside diamonds. The replica business is pretty much owned by a company in Fort Worth, Texas, which you can find at http://www.aircraftmodels.com. This business was founded about 20 years ago by a guy named Dick Miller. Dick had a large collection of real ID models, and he was getting frustrated by the fact that some of his prize items were beginning to melt. He started reproducing things for his own purposes, and then began to offer replicas to the public. Dick initially marked his models with a raised "R" in a diamond (easily visible on the undersides of the wings in the aforementioned auctions). Dick found that unscrupulous buyers were buying his models, grinding off the "R", and then offering them for sale as originals. Eventually, Dick just gave up, which means that not all replicas from his company are marked. Dick died about 10 years ago, and his second-in-command, Charles Fleming, acquired the business and expanded it. If you want to fill in a gap in your collection, or get a model of a plane never produced by the military, Charles is a great source.
Some other things to keep in mind: Original models were intended to be viewed from ~35' away. That's about 1/2 mile, to scale, and was the effective range of the weapons of the era. US models have control surfaces and canopy markings, unlike UK models, but there was no need for that level of detail. Anytime you see a model, like those gray ones you mentioned, which show panel lines, rivets, and other detailing that would normally not be seen from a distance, you know you are looking at some relatively modern recreation, not something from the period.
A wartime model that is painted gray is another anomaly. Gray models didn't come out until 1948, so there would be no need for a gray Betty or a gray ME-109 (both wartime planes), to name a couple of the recent models offered for sale, to be issued by the military in the postwar era. The models are nice, and look better than the originals, so they have a place in the collecting pantheon. Just don't confuse them with military training models.
Cheers! -- Bryan
BWBrown
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby ramseyd » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:01 pm

Bryan,
Great Summary. I would also add that if you look closely at some of these newer models, you can also see molding differences between the real ID models and these. The Japanese Rufe currently listed is an example. If you have one (I don't) or have a picture of one that was original (I do), then if you compare the rear horizontal stabilizer you will see that an original has a small circular impression on each side, whereas the fake does not. The lack of a logo on the bottom is also a good indication of a fake, although some previous owners may have sanded these off for various reasons. I could not tell on the Rufe whether a logo was present or not.
rufeetailx.jpg
Original ID
rufeetailx.jpg (11.44 KiB) Viewed 7032 times

Fake
User avatar
ramseyd
 
Posts: 115
Images: 0
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:38 pm
Location: Oviedo, Fl

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby chrsn » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:16 pm

I saw the flood of gray models you're talking about. The big giveaway for me was the fact that some of these models had stuff like gun barrels, prop blades and pitot tubes--which make absolutely no sense for a true recognition model. That stuff would have broken off a long time ago.
chrsn
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:09 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby BWBrown » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:59 pm

Hi Dennis -
You are correct about the mold marks. On the other hand, I have seen models from OCD collectors who have filled in/filed down those mold markings, so you can't always tell.
Gun barrels, however, in response to Chris's subsequent post, are another clear indicator. It would have been impossible to see a gun barrel from a few hundred yards away, let alone a half mile. Gun barrels were never present on military training models, with five wartime exceptions: (1) the Zeke 52, made by Design Center, which displayed 2 cannon barrels; (2) one version of the seven different P-47 T'Bolts made for the military, also made by Design Center, which displays 8 machine gun barrels; (3) Firefly; (4) Tempest; (5) Typhoon. The Firefly also exists in the postwar series.
I'm not aware of any other wartime or postwar US military training model that displayed gun barrels, but someone else may point out something I have forgotten.
Thanks for your comments! I'll look at that Rufe again and see what else I can see.
Regards! -- Bryan
BWBrown
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 pm

Re: who made the gray ID's?

Postby BWBrown » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:10 pm

Hi Dennis -
Me, again! I looked at the photos of the Rufe. The giveaway to me is to look at the picture which shows the bottom of the wing. Use the zoom-in feature on Ebay and you will see panel lines and markings. The surface is not smooth and detail-free, like an ID model should be, so it's clear to me that the wings are reproductions. If the wings are reproductions, then the whole model most likely is, too. We are certainly in agreement about this particular sucker!
Cheers! -- Bryan
BWBrown
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:03 pm


Return to Identification/Recognition Models

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron